Does This Truly Represent the State of Politics in America?
If so, I'm almost ready to abandon ship.
I stayed out of the Betrayus Mess.
I stayed out of the Phony Soldier Mess.
But I can no longer ignore the sleaze that is passing for political discussion in this country.
What sent me over the edge? The Republican-tinged blogosphere attack on a Baltimore, MD family (mom, dad, 12-year-old son, 9-year-old daughter and two other children). A family that had the chutzpah to step into the public spotlight to talk about their experiences with a subsidized insurance program (funds are part federal, part state, part family).
And this is the kind of tripe heaped on them. Anonymously, of course:
If federal funds were required [they] could die for all I care. Let the parents get second jobs, let their state foot the bill or let them seek help from private charities. ... I would hire a team of PIs and find out exactly how much their parents made and where they spent every nickel. Then I'd do everything possible to destroy their lives with that info.
No wonder average Americans are fed up with politics.
The program at the center of this tempest is the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP). Congress passed and President Bush vetoed (only his fourth) a measure to extend and expand coverage. Republican support in the Senate was sufficient to override the expected veto; Republican support in the House was only about two dozen votes short of an override. In other words, this is extremely broad bi-partisan support.
But rather than argue the (de)merits of the legislation, the right-leaning blogosphere (and National Review and Limbaugh) took aim at a 12-year-old boy. And they didn't even have the decency to take aim with accuracy -- it was fire, ready, aim.
From the Baltimore Sun:
The onslaught began over the weekend, a week after 12-year-old Graeme Frost delivered the Democrats' weekly radio address with a plea to Bush to sign the bill. A contributor to the conservative Web site Free Republic noted Graeme's enrollment in the private Park School and the sale of a smaller rowhouse on the Frosts' block for $485,000 this year and questioned whether the family should be taking advantage of the state program.
That post was picked up by the National Review Online and other Web sites. By Monday, Rush Limbaugh was discussing the family's earnings and assets on the air, and the blogger Michelle Malkin was writing about her visit to Halsey Frost's East Baltimore warehouse and her drive past the family's Butchers Hill rowhouse. Liberal bloggers, meanwhile, were complaining that the Frosts were being "swift-boated."
Facts R Not Us
I hate what passes for political discourse today. As much as I applaud the democratization of voices made possible by the social web, I hate today's result. A step-by-step rebuttal:
- The family is "rich."
According to USA Today, the family of six makes about $45,000 a year. This is "well below the $55,220 limit for a family of six set under the original SCHIP program" in Maryland. (emphasis added) - The family could afford insurance (related to: the family is rich).
In 2004, two children were severely injured in a car accident, one permanently disabled. The folks who say these children are "insurable" must have been asleep during the briefing on how pre-existing conditions either aren't insurable or cost an arm-and-a-leg. (Been there, done that with a knee injury.) - The family lives in a high-rent neighborhood and so could afford ... what? (related to: the family is rich).
Bloggers said the house was worth more than $400,000. It is in a "modest" Baltimore neighborhood (Butchers Hill) and according to public records is valued at about $260,000. The family bought the home for $55,000 in 1991 or 1990 (conflicting news reports) when "'there were drug dealers and prostitutes on our street,' Bonnie Frost said. Halsey Frost, a woodworker, did most of the renovations, which are 'still not done,' Bonnie said." - The kids attend a private school with annual tuition of $40,000 (related to: the family is rich).
They do attend private school. The boy is on a scholarship; the girl's tuition is paid by the state because she needs special ed due to her disabilities.
Added: for the record, I don't consider $45,000 annual income "rich" even if it's one person living solo. I think it's great that this family had the financial where-with-all to buy a home 17 (or so) years ago, and I'm pretty sure their mortgage (even after tapping the equity to remodel the home after the children were injured) is a heck of a lot cheaper than rent would be.
I roll my eyes when politicos trot out "poster children" for a cause (they're not always under 18) but I totally understand the need to turn dry facts and data into a story. We've been doing that since before the written word, judging by those caves in France. Why this child and this story got the right-wingers Hanes knotted up I leave to the imagination of the reader.
What Others Are Saying
Here is the Atlanta Journal Constitution:
Why did President Bush decide to convert to old-fashioned fiscal conservatism now, at the expense of health care for children? After he has waged an unnecessary war that will cost trillions, endorsed multibillion-dollar prescription coverage for the elderly and cut taxes for the wealthy, why has he suddenly become concerned about budgetary red ink?
[...]
(In Georgia, families of four earning up to $48,527 are eligible. They pay premiums of up to $70 a month.)
Moderate blogger Joe Gandleman:
[The Democrats] picked a kid to deliver the counter address. We wrote THIS POST that noted how effective it would be and the kind of media coverage it would get — putting a human face on a problem that Mr. Bush and his most loyal followers are trying to frame as a matter of ideology (we don’t want people turning to government insurance) or numbers debates.
No matter. When I wrote that post I had a snarky paragraph in it — which I cut out.
The cut-out paragraph noted that now that this kid has come forward in 21st century America he was certain to be demonized — with every facet of his family history investigated, talk show hosts latching onto the slightest thing possible to discredit him... it would come out and be PROOF that what he said on radio had no merit.
But I felt it was too cheap a shot, too snarky, too uncharitable to the way politics works these days — and too unbelievable ... So I sighed and I cut it.
But now I see it isn’t far from the truth.
And finally, from Republican-turned-Independent Balloon Juice:
[T]hey don’t have any advice other than “SUCKS TO BE YOU” or “SELL YOUR HOUSE” or “GET ANOTHER JOB.” Because, as we all know, the hallmark of responsibility is making your children homeless so they can maybe get healthcare. Nobody even pointed to the numerous charities that we conservatives are supposed to expect to fill the gap so the government doesn’t have to pay for things. Instead, it was taunts, catcalls, contempt, and jealousy (because these folks are in SUCH an enviable situation).
I simply can not believe this is what the Republican party has become. I just can’t. It just makes me sick to think all those years of supporting this party, and this is what it has become. Even if you don’t like the S-Chip expansion, it is hard to deny what Republicans are- a bunch of bitter, nasty, petty, snarling, sneering, vicious thugs, peering through people’s windows so they can make fun of their misfortune.
I’m registering Independent tomorrow.
Like Digby, I say this is sick.
What do you think?
Update 1
Shaun Mullen at The Moderate Voice has a chilling quote about ritual and pack mentality from Liberal blogger Ezra Klein. In 2005, Klein reported that a 9 year old boy from Texas was traveling the country to promote President Bush's "No Child Left Behind" bill. He wondered if it violated any child labor laws -- but said not one negative word about the boy or his parents.The Commonwealth Fund has a good backgrounder on SCHP, for those of us (like me) who had not heard of this program until now.
Update 2
See who voted how on HR 976: Children's Health Insurance Program Reauthorization Act of 2007
Comments
Oh, please! Nobody is attacking a child. The parents of the child made poor choices. My family makes the same as the Frosts but we pay for insurance. No inadequately insured SUV, expensive granite counters, no expensive house and business properties, private schools.
Live modest, pay your own way. STOP using kids as poster children for socialized medicine. Working people do not want to pay for selfish parents who refuse to purchase insurance coverage but live high on the hog.
Remember Hillary Clinton’s exploitation of Jennifer Bush? I suppose it the fault of the right Dems can’t trot out any real examples of why we need socialized medicine. Try making some real arguments over hiding behind kids and trotting them out with little red wagons. Nothing but a ploy for the left to get their hands deeper in the working man’s pockets so frauds like Hillary’s Kathleen Bush can use children to steal from decent people!
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/michelle/malkin020400.asp
[In February 2000], Kathleen Bush – Hillary Clinton’s once-proud and loud sister in arms — was sentenced to five years in prison on two counts of aggravated child abuse and one count of fraud. She also pled guilty to a separate count of welfare fraud for misrepresenting $60,000 in assets on Medicaid forms. “There was probably more abuse in this single case,” lead prosecutor Bob Nichols noted, “than in all of the child-abuse cases I’ve prosecuted in my life combined.”
Mrs. Bush’s behavior is an extreme example of the Nanny State opportunism to which Hillary Clinton has dedicated her life. It’s enough to make you sick.
Of course you didn’t comment on the fake soldier and Betrayus mess. Too busy bashing and whining when Dems get caught trying to push failed policy and trotting out frauds.
Facts are not you either–
The house that the Frosts currently reside in was purchased in 1990 for $55,000.
Which was above the median range of housing in 1990:
In Baltimore, median household incomes rose from $24,045 in 1990 to $36,031 in 2006 in the Baltimore City-Towson area. But median home prices in that same area went from $54,700 to $126,400, according to census data.
Examiner Link
Why wasn’t the SUV properly insured?
That’s why people purchase insurance BEFORE pre-existing conditions. The fact remains the Frosts didn’t put insuring their kids first.
Read the Free Republic research before criticizing it. The “rebuttal” does not address any of the facts. The family reports a $45,000 income, but the facts show rental income and the use of a LLC for his business which allows the hiding of income. As to insurance, it is clear the cannot buy insurance NOW, but the issue discussed is whether they should have prior to the accident. (BTW the injury resulted from an auto accident, were the parents’ not paying for auto insurance for their two SUV’s also?) The value of the House is not disputed, nor it the additional payment of $52,000 for the property in 2005. Unmentioned is the purchase of business property in 1999 which brings in additional income.
As to school tuition, their present situation is not relevant to the debate. Rather, the unchallenged $40,000 tuition prior to the accident is. The fact that they will not show their tax returns underscores the conservative position. The bottom line is the Dems sought to get advantage by hiding behind a 12 year old they did not research. They (and the child’s parents) made the parents’ bad choices fair game — a game they cannot win.
Your sanctimony seems very selective Ms Gill. But this is nothing new. It was a blogger’s comments, sheesh! Seems a lot less newsworthy than a senator comparing our troops to nazis or Pol Pot, don’t you think? Check out Kos’s site and see where they wish death on their political enemies on a daily basis. Now there’s some good political discourse for you.
* The kids attend a private school with annual tuition of $40,000 (related to: the family is rich).
They do attend private school. The boy is on a scholarship; the girl’s tuition is paid by the state because she needs special ed due to her disabilities.
—–
WRONG!
The kids were in a $20K/year private school BEFORE the crash. Harry Reid’s staffer said they were on scholarship, the renter of the family’s business office says the grandparents paid all the tuition, and the Frost family says the kids are in the private school with financial assistance.
3 different stories!
And Mrs Frost says that insurance would cost $1200 per month, but that is the actual cost after the crash. She wasn’t even pricing insurance before the crash.
These people are gaming the system.
The cute part is how I was attacked… I said it on my blog and I’ll say it here. I wasn’t defending SCHIP, not at all, I was defending that families right to privacy. That’s why I put malkin’s real address, Phone number and Arial picture of her house on my blog. I removed it after a reporter for the Baltimore Sun asked me to kill it, because they were doing a story on Malkin.
If Malkin wants to try painting me as moonbat, fine. I’ll just paint her as the right wing fascist that she is.
your are completely wrong on this one. Taxpayers are right to make sure their money doesn’t go to the leeches of soceity. The bottom line is this: welfare is theft. The details, no matter how ’sad’ do not justify theft from one person to benefit someone else who made choices to put them in the posistion they are in. IF, as you say, the house has accrued $350,000+ worth of equity then they SHOULD be forced to sell it prior to accepting taxpayer money. Why should the taypayers have to overlook the fact they are sitting on an investment that could sustain them for a suffienctly long time? There is no reason we should be expected to overlook this.
From a European point of view, the whole debate is typically American. In the USA, nobody is allowed to make any mistake, because most people thinks in the typical neo-classical way of the perfectly rational and informed “homo economicus”. For this same reason, the US insurance system is outrageously priced despite being unable to reach a better level of coverage or medical level than in Europe.
In Europe, this problem would have simply never happened… Everybody is insured, private or public.
This is an ugly subject… none of us would want to experience the misfortunes of the Frosts. They have suffered enough already and probably don’t deserve to suffer at the hands of the media. But they chose to put themselves and their kids out there as a representations of “needy”. This choice DOES open them up for scrutiny, like it or not. Personally, I think there are many far needier families who could have served as representations of the Schip program. I don’t think the Frosts were a good choice to be the face of poverty, especially in a city like Baltimore, where poverty is entrenched and far-reaching. The Democrats really made a stupid choice in this instance and didn’t do their homework.
In the interest of accuracy: two of the children attend The Park School, paying $500 each. Tuition for the two at Park would run $40,000 without financial assistance. A third child’s $23,000 tuition at a special school for children with disabilities is funded by the state and covers the child who was brain-damaged in the accident. The fourth child, with pre-existing learning disabilities not related to the accident, attends a special institution for those with learning differences. Tuition there is possibly covered by financial aid or partially covered. All in all, for the four children to attend these institutions the total cost would exceed $90,000/year, but they pay less than $2000. It is hard to believe that the family managed to jump through the hoops of a complicated financial aid system to obtain private education for their children to the tune of $90,000/yr but couldn’t manage to cover the children’s health insurance prior to the accident of maybe $10,000/yr. I cannot disagree with people who say this choice isn’t fair to families who pay their health insurance like responsible citizens and then can’t afford fancy private schools.
I am firmly for a socialized healthcare system. I firmly believe that we all deserve health care by virtue of being taxpayers. If the system covered everyone equally there would be no need for “working the system” as people accuse the Frosts of doing. Let’s leave the Frosts out of it. The system is broken broken broken. That’s the real issue.
President Bush’s Administration encouraged 7 states to cover not only kids but their poor parents too under SCHIP when Republicans controlled congress. Now he’s cynically playing politics trying to look fiscally “responsible” by scuttling the whole program. If that stands it will cost Illinois alone an extra $75 million in Medicaid costs, by far a more expensive program to both Illinois and federal taxpayers than SCHIP.
That makes no financial sense at all. Hopefully it will make no political sense either when the American people kick the Republican party to the curb next year.
Alex, I don’t visit Kos and I don’t visit Freep. I’m fully aware of the venom that pseudo-anonymous people dish out on one another in political forums: I host one on this site.
That is far different from what has happened here, and you know it. I wish I’d written what Joe wrote — he expressed my mortification quite well.
And most of the comments in this thread have focused not on whether or not SCHIP should be renewed or expanded, but instead their keyboard belief that the Frosts aren’t worthy.
I’m surprised no one has questioned their decision to have four children — now *that* was a choice.
Stones and glass houses.
To Human Shields:
My source for that sentence (which is linked) says the house was bought in 1991. I see now that another source says 1990.
To Macombbob:
It’s great that you and Freep believe that simply because you could envision hiding assets that, by extension, this family MUST be hiding assets.
That you and Freep, from the anonymity of your keyboards, know more about this family than the state of Maryland, which reportedly requires proof of income to prove eligibility.
Thanks for making the point of my post.
Alex, it was also Rush and NRO — mainstream media outlets.
Hi, Luke:
Your “welfare is theft” comment marks your political philosophy as radically libertarian. I take your comments with that grain of salt.
Thanks, Alphast, for another point of view. What most Americans don’t realize is that not only would this not have happened in most (all?) EU countries, the EU economy is kicking the US a$$ … despite its “socialized” medicine (et al).
Most Americans don’t “get” that even our own auditor has been on the stump for two years talking about how the US stacks up (poorly) with the rest of the developed world on health and economic measures.
Don’t trouble these folks with facts.
Hi, Chuck:
Did not know that you were attacked — I’m sorry to hear that. I truly don’t know when one should turn the other check and when one should fight fire with fire. (How’s that for a cliche riddled sentence that sums up your choices.)
Hi, Jackson:
Thanks for reminding us of the key issue — how to provide affordable health care to everyone, not just those of us with good employer-provided insurance (me and my SO) or those of us so poor or old that we are eligible for Medicare/Medicaid.
I’m beginning some research on the correlation (if there is one) between the rising cost of health care in the US and ability for corporations to patent genes + changes in law governing the life of drug patents.
Heartless, and stupid politics. Where are these people’s aides, and where did their guts go? You don’t attack a kid (or attack a kid by attacking his parents). “All the republicans had to say was, “We agree that SCHIP
(con.)All the republicans had to say was, “We agree this is an important program that has helped people in the past and look forward to working with Congress to sensibly reauthorize the program.” Simple and honorable, instead of heartless and stupid.
I am so saddened that we as a nation have come to this. No matter what, it seems that no one is willing to acknowledge the fact that the conservative blogs took a bunch of half-truths and tried to make them into some “obvious” fraud being made by the Frost family. In reality, everything that I’ve read makes them out to be a very average family who had a bad thing happen to them. No one is perfect, and we can argue all day about whether they should have an SUV or if their kitchen cabinets are “too” nice, but the bottom line is that it seems as though we as a people have become so cruel and hating that we can’t realize that their situation isn’t that different from most families in the US. Most people I know are perhaps living a little beyond their means, I don’t defend it, but what a bunch of hypocrits to think this family is anything other than the average family, probably one misfortune away from everything unraveling. I say thank goodness the government still has some safety nets in place for situations like this and I loathe the day when social security runs out and health insurance is too expensive for anyone but the rich. Then, I’d like to hear how judgemental people are when they can’t retire and the mere thought of getting sick or injured gives them the shivers. It truly sucks that in the greatest country on earth people have to worry about how to pay for something like healthcare, which is pretty much an unquestioned right in most other 1st world countries.
So much for compassionate conservatism. As far as welfare, let’s not forget the corporate welfare (most recent example the bail out to the lending industry)and the welfare to the industry that leaches off the military budget. If we cracked down on that welfare we could comfortably offer universal health coverage.
Woo Hoo! Ms. Gill is gettin her butt kicked.LOL
For the record ms gill, I heard the comments mr limbaugh made and he did NOT go after the kid. He specifically went after the Dimocratic party and the kid’s parents for exploiting the little guy. Get your facts straight or stop lying!
And, I’d love to see those facts about the EU economy kicking the U.S. economy’s butt? For the record, what % do they pay in taxes? 50-70%?? What’s their unemployment rate? 10-12%? Stick with liberal politics ms gill.
C
This is so sick. Wealthy political commentators and politicians attacking a modest-income family - even stalking them - because they dare to say that their family has been helped by SCHIP and they want other families to benefit as well. And all the ditto-heads and other mean little people following suit. How small-souled can anyone be? A more expansive view of life works wonders for civilized discourse and good health. If you are a middle-income family with a home, you too can experience this families joy - have an automotive accident; fall off a ladder while cleaning your windows; experience serious mental illness; get cancer - even if you do have healthcare coverage, you may end up without a home. Most personal bankruptcies take place because of medical emergencies and often the individuals work hard and do have health insurance, just not the good kind. The tragic story of this one family shows how close we all are to personal disaster and how much we need a single-payer socialized healthcare system in this country. As for all the “I was poor, and we still paid our health insurance stories”, give me a break, please. When my husband and I were young and very poor, we could just pay our rent ($14 weekly), heat ($10 monthly), and had $15 a week to spend on food - not a penny more (all while my husband worked a job after school and paid his way through college, too) - we did not even have a telephone. Even in the early ’70’s that was harsh. Nowhere in that equation was there money for health insurance, much less beer, movies, McDonalds, childcare or anything else. We lived a strictly limited, sometimes bleak life, for quite a few years. I am not one who thinks that everyone else needs to experience that but we did learn several things from those early experiences that have stood us well over the years. We learned to live on next to nothing; to value and stretch every dime, nickel, and penny; to cook our own food not buy prepared foods; to use and reuse everything; to not impulse buy anything; to value inner qualities in people rather than the exterior (we couldn’t afford to buy shoes or clothes for ourselves just thrift-store clothes for our small children). It also taught us that you don’t need to have beer, soda, candy, or potato chips - you can get along fine on beans, cereal, pasta, eggs, bread, the occasional cheap hamburger hot dogs and milk. The long-term lesson was that we had to help ourselves, and that if we could, we should help others. It also left us with a permanent sense of the ephemeral state of existence we all have in a society where money speaks, not humanity. It wasn’t till the Vietnam War and military life, that we were finally able to see a doctor when we weren’t dying (such a nice system they have - socialized medicine, no less). I would happily pool my tax dollars with everyone else’s in order for everyone in this country, not just children, to have basic healthcare coverage. It is a telling commentary of what we our nation has become that so many people enjoy expending their venom on this poor family, not on, objecting to a system wherein 47 million working have no health insurance or $600 billion taxpayers goes to fund endless wars and provide corporations with excessive profits and other forms of corporate welfare at taxpayer expense. When I was a girl I was taught to treat others as I would want to be treated - a philosophy that has served me well and caused me to feel that I am part of a greater society than my own small world. I was also taught that there are some things about which we should feel shame. Apparently, Rush Limbaugh, George Bush, Michelle Malkin and all the others who feel no empathy with this family did not learn those lessons - mores the pity.
good point, centrist. as the AJC points out, this seems an odd place for bush to draw a line in the sand re fiscal concerns — only his 4th veto. After all, the original legislation came out of a Republican Congress. And the expansion was to be paid 100% with a cigarette tax.
MarkG8, I didn’t know that.
Tlhwraith, you make good points about most families being one paycheck away from financial disaster.
Most personal bankruptcies in the US are the result of medical bills, IIRC.
Chuck, glad you stopped by. Great to know that it’s more important to you to “keep score” than talk about an issue. Gotta hand it to you, you’re consistent.
Chuck: “And, I’d love to see those facts about the EU economy kicking the U.S. economy’s butt? For the record, what % do they pay in taxes? 50-70%?? What’s their unemployment rate? 10-12%? Stick with liberal politics ms gill.”
###
Just look at the value of the $ versus the Euro. Or the US$ v the Ca$.
And no, their tax rate isn’t 50% — but neither do they have the kind of gap between filthy rich and poor that we have. GO read http://economist.com/
The EU has passed the US to become the world’s largest economy.
AFA unemployment rate, I think it’s about 7%. Not that far off the real US rate (we stop counting people as unemployed after they quit looking for a job).
Bonewoman - wow - thank you.
Your point about the outrage people poured onto this family versus the outrage at $600 billion on Iraq (trillions over the lifetime of those who served) is spot on.
Kathy
From a European point of view, the whole debate is typically American. In the USA, nobody is allowed to make any mistake, because most people thinks in the typical neo-classical way of the perfectly rational and informed “homo economicus”. For this same reason, the US insurance system is outrageously priced despite being unable to reach a better level of coverage or medical level than in Europe.
In Europe, this problem would have simply never happened… Everybody is insured, private or public.
——————————-
I lived in Europe. Once you get past the 26% - 31% VAT (Sales Tax) on every item you buy, you should expect a lot of service. Like when I went to the doctor and he said that the medicine that would work, he could not prescribe because it was too costly. I had to first try a medicine that would not work and that when it did not work, he could then prescribe the correct medicine. So the above blogger is correct - we in America expect better.
In Europe they have vans that drive the streets scanning to see who has a TV on. Do you know why? So they can send you a tax bill for owning a TV set.
Annexing more countries doesn’t equate to “kicking the U.S. economies butt” or are you totally economically challenged? 27 countries, 500 million people and they edge out our economy by a few million dollars does not equate to kicking anyone’s butt. I won’t even give you a nice try. Just another blatant lie to denegrate the U.S..
As far as tax rates go, it is much closer to 50-60% by the time you add on the extra corporate taxes they extract from corps. Again, you show your economic illiteracy.
And 7% is 50% more than our unemployment. You assume that EU is a noble group that doesn’t play with the numbers to keep them lower than they really are? Don’t invest in the stock market. You just don’t have the smarts.
C
The bottom line here is: The Dims tried to exploit a child and got caught red handed. Ms Gill and all the lefties on this comment page are tap dancing and trying to divert attention from what Malkin and Limbaugh commented about. These folks are not poor, could easily have bought insurance but decided to roll the dice and lost. Now they’re paying the price. It’s Ms Gill and her ilk who should be chastized for exploitation of children and that, is the subject at hand. Now you’re getting the spanking you deserve so stop crying.
Single payer Healthcare is a different animal and has been documented to be worse than what we now have and how anyone can dispute those facts evades me?
C
Chuck, let the record show that although you regularly attack my person, when I reply to you I talk about your positions (when there are any).
RE your comment about “Dims exploiting a child” …. did you say the same thing when President Bush trotted a 9 year old AROUND THE COUNTRY to promote his NCLB act?
Waiting …
Kathy,
In your response to Chuck’s points you said: “Gotta hand it to you, you’re consistent.” So are you Ms Gill, so are you.
Tax the poor to fund the middle class. That’s what it is about. We don’t have enough smokers to fund the expansion so who pays? Many who make less than the Frosts. Entitlements are a big chunk of the debt and the Democrats along with Republicans are eager to pile it on. Shame on them…they intend to do it on the backs of our working poor.
People who are shocked by the Frost assets forget they are already eligible. Politicians want to expand the program to people who have more. This will not encourage responsible parenting in our country. Don’t worry about the kids…whoo hoo…we can buy that SUV, boat and take a trip…let someone else pay for the necessities.
Hi,Kelly:
Do you have data to support the claim that “the poor” smoke more than other income groups?
Kathy
Learn to read. I didn’t say the poor smoke more than other income groups. I said we do not have enough smokers to fund entitlement expansions for people who make more than the Frosts. So, who pays? The working man and woman? We will all be miserable and poor while paying for people with income (not including assets) almost double the Frosts. It is slavery…
Ms Gill misses the point in debate again.
http://www.heritage.org/Research/HealthCare/wm1548.cfm
Who Would Pay?
Increasing the tobacco tax is an inequitable way to fund SCHIP, because a large portion of the burden would fall on poor and low-income families and the relatively young. Around half of smokers are in families earning less than 200 percent of the federal poverty line (FPL), so increasing the tobacco tax would burden the families in the income class that SCHIP and Medicaid are trying to help.[2] Furthermore, smokers are more likely to be poor or low-income than wealthy.[3] (See Chart 1.) With an expanded tobacco tax, SCHIP expansion to higher income levels would largely be funded by lower income persons, those who can least afford it.
Hi, Coop - thanks a lot for citing some data. And providing a rational reason for opposing the legislation.
I have mixed feelings about “sin” or consumption taxes — especially when the consumption tax is on behavior “society” is trying to modify (ie, reduce). That’s because if society is successful in changing behavior, the revenue source is gone. My personal experience with this catch-22 came in the 90s when I worked on recycling efforts — which were funded with the solid waste tax — which incrementally declined as recycling efforts took material out of the solid waste stream.
That said, your comment about ME was a cheap shot.
I have not taken a public position on SCHIP nor have I spent a lot of time researching the bill. MY comments had to do with the rhetoric — and the fact that the conservative blogosphere and media decided to attack a family rather than debate the issue.
Whether or not you LIKE the revenue source, at least this Congress *found* one before voting to expand the program.
Kelly - you said:
“Tax the poor to fund the middle class.”
I took that to mean you thought there were more poor smokers than middle class smokers. If it’s not what you meant, then what DID you mean?
AFA your claim that “We don’t have enough smokers to fund the expansion” — where are YOUR data to support your claim that you are right and Congressional projections are wrong?
Chuck, this isn’t a thread about the differences between the EU and the US economies. Go read The Economist - I’m not going to try to synoposize a special report.
BTW, although you’re being consistent in your rhetoric attacking me personally, I have grown weary of it. I will no longer reply to any of your posts that attack me rather than discuss an issue.
If the family wants to be used as a political tool, they should be ready to be questioned. Too often, the left attempts pass off sources as if they are not open to criticism, like the Jersey girls, Cindy Sheehan, and the Frost family.
Besides, this family ALREADY qualifies…Bush’s veto does NOT affect them.
I have been a school counselor and teacher for over 20 years in rural Missouri. It is not uncommon to see children with ear infections so bad that infection is running from their ears or with a jaw swollen from an infected tooth. Most parents work 2 jobs and make $8.00 an hour or less. They don’t make enough to pay for gas, food, and rent. We are only hurting the children. One parent was afraid to work overtime because her benefits would be taken away.
Please come down from your ivory tower and look at the real world. Our children are worse off than most other countries. Who do you think you are fooling?
We seem to come up with billions of dollars to fund health care for the children of other nations.
In the US, only a select group of children have the privilege of health care.